I have become so cynical about homestuck and how it’s going lately. I don’t know how to handle this. How do you handle growing increasingly aware of all the problematc shit that is only getting worse as time goes on, of growing increasingly dissatisfied with something that defined and was a huge…excuse me, i know hs has been really shitty lately, but hussie is trying his best to finish up and get us out of the caliborn font. calliborn is a good character but a bad person, he is diverse and has veiws, shitty vews, but there his and they are currently being represented just as callies were. anywho, john’s about to beat his ass for us. so just know it will be back soon. :)
already kind of answered this but
characters do not exist in a vacuum. All the shit caliborn is doing is not being called out, criticized, or in any way commented upon. Caliborn’s awful awful language and general quips at the expense of women has never been called out in canon. The most that got called out one time is john’s reprimation of how he was displaying them in his story.
Hussie has made the mistake so many writers/game developers/movie directors/ script writers make in that they equate showing or bringing up an issue as actually being about an issue, without feeling the need to criticize/have actual consequences for the actions.
It’s not satire, t’s not comedy, it’s just misogyny.
Like ok, let’s compare using homestuck. One of my favorite new scenes in the recent acts is terezi talking about gamzee’s abuse. Gamzee’s abuse here is not made into comedy, and we don’t just see gamzee being an abusive asshole with no commentary. Instead, we see how awful and crushed terezi has become due to his abuse that led her into making a decision she can’t reverse. We see her cry, breakdown, be incredibly emotional due to this in both the first pesterlogs we saw this, and in subsequent scenes.It rings so well with me because i’ve experienced the exact same things, and seeing it treated so realistically and darkly was great.
None of caliborn’s actions have received this treatment. Hell, we haven’t even seen how this type of language/treatment has affected calliope. As much as i love caliborn as a character, how his awfulness is handled in the story is not well done.
I’m just gonna go ahead and bring this up here (and I know I could be TOTALLY wrong about this). But well, I think that I might be able to address the criticism to some extent.
Generally we can view Caliborns actions one of two ways. The first way is that Caliborn is acting as an archetypical parody. A mirror of every douche-bag misogynisitic male you know. A stand in for all the people who we do not condone and whose actions and beliefs are not only deplorable, but utterly disgusting.
Now firstly, we could say that this is used as comedy. In which case what is occurring is similar to what happens in older Mel-brooks parody movies, in which the traits of characters are amplified to an incredible extreme such that they become utterly ridiculous and as such create humor because we recognize them to be so out of place. The major thing I enjoy about Hussies writing is that he allows characters actions and statements to speak for themselves, they don’t need to be explained because we as readers are smart enough to figure it out (or at least that’s how Hussie generally tries to treat us). In the case of parody I think that we are supposed to KNOW that Caliborn is wrong. And that what Hussie is trying to present to us is a souped up hyper parody of the standard mysoginistic douchebag we have all encountered before. It’s similar to old Mel-brooks parody movies, in which the characters we know from classic films are taken to such an extreme that they become utterly ridiculous. The problem with the mysoginists that Hussie SEEMS to be trying to parody here, is that they are already such an extreme and ridiculous group already that it is very difficult to satirize them. I admit it seems to be played straight if you have encountered these kinds of people before, but there is an element of ridiculousness in the most recent update which bespeaks that he is trying his best to make Caliborn as an extreme and ridiculous example of mysoginy as possible. But again, for those who have encountered them before, it seems to hit a bit too close to home.
Alternatively, there is the idea that Caliborn is played straight. Not a hyper parody of a mysoginist, but just a regular mysoginist. This seems to be what the majority of people are viewing it as. And I can understand the concern that simply bringing it up does not lead to solvency. That by not doing anything terrible to Caliborn for being a mysoginist Hussie is tacitly supporting them. That being said, Hussie seems to respect his readers enough that he trusts them to UNDERSTAND right from wrong and that again, Caliborn is utterly deplorable. And yet, for all his wrong doings, we have yet to see him receive his comeuppance. And I think that is intentional to a large degree. And I believe that we HAVE seen to an extent, the fallout from Caliborns words and actions, multiple times. Such as Calliope’s feelings of hopelessness and despair as he continues to berate her and demean her throughout their entire chess exchange. Or how he demeans Jane, body shaming her and causing her severe emotional distress. These are genuinely heart-wrenching things which hit close to home in my opinion and show how much of a terrible influence Caliborn is on other characters. And unfortunately, just like the douche-bags and mysoginists who sit behind their computers consequence free as they shame and demean others, so too has Caliborn gotten away generally scott-free with his bad behavior. And in that sense he is all too real, as he is not only a cosmic entity of destruction and death, but also that person we all know and hate who brings misery to our everyday lives (basically he is Voldemort+Umbridge if that makes any sense).
I could be wrong on these accounts but I don’t think Hussie is supporting mysoginists and fedora-wearing douchebags by having his principle villain be one. He has qualities we recognize as being more human, recognizable and even relatable as shown in his brief “remorse” as his thoughts wander to his lost sister. But at the same time he is a character made to be hated by the reader while still being that, a CHARACTER, and more than just a base stereotype (just as almost all of the cast of mspa is). And there is still one thing to recall. It took a VERY long time to build up the full nature of Terezi and Gamzee’s unhealthy relationship and for it to hit home just how terrible it really was (similar to a very real abusive relationship). And while this is pure conjecture, I think Hussie may be on the same path with Caliborn. To allow us all to see and recognize his actions as well as their full impact on the people around him, as well as (hopefully) the sensation of a sweet just-reward for all the terrible things he has done, both in his cosmic world destroying actions, and in his more palpable inter-personal terrorization.
Or, I could be completely wrong about this, that is a definite possibility
On Homestucks other short-comings? Well, I can’t really speak on those. I just know that for all its problems it has been a fun ride, and while we should not excuse its problems, that doesn’t mean that we should just give up on all the positive things it has done and brought to our lives.
JUST. SHOWING. SOMETHING. IS. NOT. PARODY. OR. SATIRE.
Expecting your audience know your intentions is bad fucking writing. People aren’t inside your fucking head. And here’s the thing- everyone goes into creating what they do with the intentions to make the best thing they can. However, this does not excuse when something is just plain bad or problematic.
All the homestuck characters are exaggerated. They’re characters. But with all the other characters, we see some form of consequence or commentary. Karkat’s romantic obsessiveness is frequently punished and called out. Characters get foils to each other that create commentary (like how Karkat and Dave play off of each other). Caliborn’s misogyny has had no commentary and no consequences. It’s not even a fucking thing really outside of the 4th wall. Calliope never really mentions or shows any actual consequences of his misogynistic actions- none of her self esteem problems are ever shown to have a gender slant to them. You know whatspending years wth an abusive misogynist would do? You fucking internalize that shit. While caliborn’s actions and abusive behavior is generally handled pretty well, the misogyny is not. And now she’s dead and very separate from the story, so now he has even less options for foils. John has only called him out on how he treated women in his story, and not his awful language and just general attitude towards women.
I don’t need comeuppance every second in the story. I want consequences, I want acknowledge that his behavior is awful and toxic, I want this subject to be treated with the respect it deserves. If he actually treated it with respect, he could make actual satire or comedy. Gamzee sure as hell hasn’t gotten comeuppance but you don’t see me complaining about his abusive plot with terezi because that area is handled with respect. The second is became known as a thing we saw consequences. Hell, before it became a thing we saw consequences.
And yes, by not having commentary or comeuppance or consequences, he has contributed to misogyny. Want proof? The sheer number of fucking people who have tried to tell me, a woman, that I shouldn’t be offended or feel uncomfortable with Caliborn’s behavior. Just like every boy who tells women they shouldn’t be offended at rape jokes, or kitchen jokes, or 500 other displays of misogyny. When you show something without commentary or consequence, it becomes problematic. It validates those who believe in it, and turns the subject into a joke, punching down at those affected, rather than punching up at the fucking misogynists. There’s a way to do social commentary humor. This ain’t it.
From the way he’s handled the abusive plotlines, save perhaps for the tavros/vriska ones (though that’s another debate), it makes me think he may have very real experience with emotional and maybe other types of abuse. What he does not have and will never have, is experience with misogyny. And it really, really, shows.Pretty interesting debate. Homestuck being unfinished is a pretty big part of the problem. On the one hand a lot of smackdowns and ‘here are the consequences of your actions, shithead’ moments have taken a long time to come, but to good effect sometimes (thinking mostly about Vriska, but that’s up for debate, yeah). We’ve already had John call Caliborn out once, I’m sure it will happen again. (Another thing: an author is not responsible for fans normalizing a character’s shitty actions! Even when Hussie condemns things explicitly, there will always be people to do it. I’m thinking about the Openbound author comments…) On the other hand, a lot of subjects in the comic have been swept under the rug in pretty shitty ways (disabilities…) and even though I would not want Hussie to do any moral handholding I’m also afraid that he’s going to fuck up somewhere dealing with a touchy subject.
Except the lack of consequence is not something that has anything to do with homestuck being unfinished???
Before we even knew terezi was being abused, we saw it’s effects. The second we learned, we saw it’s effects. And we continued to see the effects. The storyline is so tightly wound in the main plot and the characters that it would literally be impossible to remove this plot point without having to rewrite so much. THAT. IS. CONSEQUENCE.
But, and once again, i’ll present the same experiment. If Caliborn was just an abusive asshole, and not a misogynistic abusive asshole, what in the story would need to be changed? Nothing. Literally. Nothing. His misogyny has no bearing or consequence on any of the plot or the characters. It could be removed seamlessly! I swear I could write the same panels of Caliborn and just remove all the awful misogyny, and it would be just as funny if not funnier.
Caliborn is not a new character. Hussie has had time after time after chance to treat this subject with respect and he hasn’t. Caliborn is nothing but an awful stereotype at this point, a strawman. And strawmans on either side (either a straw feminist or straw misogynist) only show disrespect for the issue.
Caliborn’s current writng is sexst. Nothing he could ever add would make Caliborn’s current writing not sexist.
Just going to throw in my two cents to this already full conversation: Homestuck being unfinished is an incredible reason for exactly why these things SHOULD be pointed out. Andrew isn’t perfect, and no matter how huge Homestuck gets, it’s still largely a product of the readers: Hussie needs us to remind him of these things so that he can pay attention to them, and fix them in the future of the story. This kind of commentary is so incredibly important to Homestuck continuing to be as great as it has been, because nothing perfect was ever made at the hand of a single person.
I know you don’t like to talk, but you gotta do it for her.
Yadriel & Maria appreciation post ✿◕‿◕✿
HE SAID MORE THAN HE DID ALL SEASON. I THOUGHT HE DIDN’T CARE. I THOUGHT HE WAS JUST BEING NICE AND LETTING HIS BABY MAMA SEE THE BABY THAT HE PROBABLY DIDN’T REALLY WANT AND BARELY LOOKED AFTER BUT I WAS FUCKING WRONG. I WAS WRONG ABOUT HIM. HE’S JUST QUIET. THE DUDE IS STOIC AS FUCK AND HE FUCKING LOVES MARIA AND HE LOVES THAT BABY AND IT’S FUCKING BEAUTIFUL THE WAY HE GUSHES AND TALKS TO HER LIKE MARIA ASKED HIM TO DO BECAUSE HE WANTS HER TO GROW UP SMART AND LOVED.
But also look at how cute the baby is dressed in each visit. Who did that? Daddy did. But that’s exactly the kind of visual cue that gets lost when he’s getting judged for his bald head, tattoos and stoic (thuggish?) demeanor.
i’m sure people know this, but for those of you who don’t, alligators and crocodiles (this is a gator) have some of the most powerful jaws on earth—if they’re biting down. their muscles are made to clamp and hold while its body twists, taking down its prey and (typically) drowning it. however, they have next to no opening power, meaning this crab’s claw has rendered this gator almost powerless
"shhh stop talking"
Played 1216015 times.
here’s a song i wrote about being in love with your best friend (no homo)
i didn’t know how badly i needed this in my life until i heard it
No but listen to this it’s lovely
“That I’d never ever make out with, except for that one time”
IM SERIOUSLY CRYING. THIS IS PERFECT
Today’s Gender of the day is: -1
So are you telling me…
That the threat of Bec Noir could have been avoided if John hadn’t stuck the fake arms on the harlequin?
THE DEPTH OF THIS JOKE HAS JUST HIT ME RIGHT NOW
THE WHOLE THEY DON’T HAVE ARMS THING, THAT EVERYONE MAKES FUN OF IN HOMESTUCK
THIS IS THE PUNCHLINE OF THAT AWFUL GENERALIZATION
THIS IS THE JOKE, FRIENDS
IF THEY TRULY DIDN’T HAVE ARMS AS SO MANY A HOMESTUCK HATER HAS POINTED OUT
BEC NOIR WOULDN’T BE
When you’re taking notes and you look away for a second and look back up and